Redefining Words and Claiming Space

After reading the polytheism section of this post, and more recently here, that John Halstead has written over and over again, I have to throw my hands up. Granted, I disagreed with him vehemently on a great many points before he worked on this post and wrote an addendum to it, but I still deeply disagree with him over what I view as one of the most egregious forms of twisting words.

When someone speaks up and misuses words they need to be checked. It is wrong to take words out of their historic, and current context, and to twist them so that the words mean what you believe. Polytheism does not equate or equal panentheism or pantheism, which is more or less what I see John Halstead trying to say with his supposed paradox that “The Gods are many…but one.”

Nowhere in his first piece does he quote polytheists, now living or dead. He notes in his addendum there are folks in the polytheist, reconstructionist, and other camps that directly disagree with him on this point, communities that use this word, and yet goes ahead and writes what he wishes as polytheism is supposed to relate to his Neo-Paganism. I absolutely do not recognize what he quotes as polytheism as such; I do not ‘use’ my Gods, nor are They psychological constructs.

Mr. Halstead quotes from Waldron in The Sign of the Witch From a neo-Pagan perspective polytheism is not the belief in a world of separate and distinct Gods but is rather an acceptance of the principle that reality and the divine is multiple, fragmented and diverse.” Okay, this may be a neo-Pagan perspective, but I do not find it polytheist at all. So far as I have seen, read, and understood to be true, polytheists treat and believe our Gods as complete in and of Themselves; They are not a fragment of some whole. Nor are They facets of a jewel. To use the metaphor, each God and Goddess is a jewel unto Themselves, and a great many facets or a single facet of Them may be seen, known, and worshiped by a person.

The question of “What the hell is Mr. Halstead getting at? What does John Halstead understand about Neo-Paganism, let alone anything regarding Paganism?” are some questions that have come to mind a few times as I have read his works, but never so much as here. How in the Nine Worlds is his idea of polytheism supposed to actually square with anything resembling polytheism such as it is lived by its adherents? How is it supposed to square with historical polytheism? All I see in his examples are panentheism, and monism. These are not polytheist. The quotes he has given are not polytheist. “The radical plurality of the self”? I have no idea what his point is here. Polytheist religion recognizes a plural Self, i.e. the Soul Matrix of the Northern Tradition. Polytheism has plurality built into it.

If Mr. Halstead’s point is solely psychological, i.e. ‘psychological polytheism’ then I believe has has missed his mark by not being more clear about what he is trying to define, and using improper words to try to define it. Religion helps shape a person and society’s psychology, its understanding of states of good or ill health, in the mental, physical, and spiritual realms. However, religion is not psychology itself. Nor should psychology, in my view, seek or be sought to supplant religion. If I have misunderstood his intent, I apologize. If I have misunderstood or misconstrued his meaning, I hope to have better definitions and descriptions written by him in the future without twisting words which I use as primary personal descriptors, such as polytheism. Were Mr. Halstead writing solely from his own view with at least something recognizable behind the words he wishes to redefine, and not using a word that people already use as a primary identifier, myself included, perhaps I would have less of an issue.

According to the theologian, William Hamilton, the gods of Neo-Pagan polytheism are not to be believed in, but are “to be used to give shape to an increasingly complex and variegated experience of life.” (quoted by Margot Adler, Drawing Down the Moon).

So his idea of polytheism is that They are to be used, to be a tool to help us shape, and therefore also understand the world around us. Yet we are not to believe in Them, even as They are supposed to be used to shape and understand the experiences of life? When I make a woodcarving I do not stop believing in the tools nor their effect on the wood any more than I stop believing or believe that the wood came to me as-is or was grown in the shape I bought it in. That wood had a life before it was cut and shaped. That wood was part of a tree, and that tree had roots in the ground, and that ground had an existence of its own well before I ever set foot upon the ground or happened upon that cut of wood from that tree. So too the tools and their components, which came from other places, and had to be fashioned into the shape they are now.

The Gods, then, are cast only into the form of the tool, rather than the ground. In the form of the woodcarving rather than the tree from which the wood came. I fully believe the Gods can be the ground, the tree, the tool, the toolmaker, the carver, the carved, and so on. In other words the Gods can be in and/or be each part of the process (the process itself may have God(s) and Goddesses over and/or involved in this, too), to say They are merely to be used as a tool denies Their actual involvement and reduces Them to an object to be manipulated. It takes away what is essential to a polytheist perspective of the Gods: personhood. Not that They are human or human-like, necessarily, but it denies Their Being and Self, as independent of us. It denies one of the basic understandings that polytheism, in any form I have practiced or been exposed to, teaches: the Gods are Beings Unto Themselves.

I do not use my Gods; I use a computer. I may ask a God or Goddess to lend Their power to a spell, or to intercede on my or someone else’s behalf, but intercessory prayer does not equal use. I do not use my Gods in ritual; rather, I pray to Them and ask for Their Presence. This point is perhaps the largest point of contention I have when anyone uses the word ‘use’ in regards to the Gods, or to Ancestors or spirits.

If I say “I use Bob on First Street when I have car trouble”, it does not diminish Bob’s personhood nor does it treat him as an end. I acknowledge his role in my life and that he is a person I trust. Saying “I use Brighid when I need healing” does not acknowledge the personhood of the Gods and instead makes the God’s identity and relationship one has with Them about their use.

It matters little if it is a Wiccan talking about ‘using’ Gods in ritual, or an atheist Pagan about ‘using’ Gods to understand the world, or themselves. If one is using this language, then they are talking about ‘using’ Beings, which I believe have agency, self-awareness, understanding, and sentience. They are talking about Beings I consider to be worthy of worship. They are talking about ‘using’ Beings from traditions which I believe to be holy and good. When the language of ‘use’ (as in using tools like an athame or wand, screwdriver or saw) is used in regards to the Gods it is disrespecting both the Gods and the traditions that hold Them as dear, holy, and worthy of worship.

One cannot utterly separate the Gods from the traditions or cultures which give/gave worship to Them. Understanding and knowledge of the Gods are informed by the traditions, cultures. The Gods inform the religions, cultures, and traditions in turn whether by mystic experience and/or simply by being the basis of the religion. This does not mean that you need to be a member of my particular Northern Tradition religion to worship the Norse/Germanic Gods, or to do it right. What it does mean is that one must acknowledge that to worship the Norse/Germanic Gods one needs to understand the culture and traditions out of which the Gods of this/these traditions come. It means that one must come to the religion with its background culture(s), tradition(s), etc. rather than trying to make it, and an understanding of and relationship with the Gods, come to you.

Taking the Gods out of these contexts renders the understanding of Them incomplete. When Ms. Krasskova or I, or another author say ‘take on an indigenous mindset’ part of this means is that one must meet the Gods on Their own terms rather than our preconceived notions, ideas, and beliefs of how our relationship should be. “Odin is the God of Wisdom” is an easy phrase to make, and while it may be true, is not the whole of all He is, and may or may not reflect my relationship with Him at all. I and other polytheists who worship Odin can come to independent understandings and relationships and so on with Him while believing Him as a God independent of our existence, and agree on basic clear concepts, on to deep details of theology. This does not necessarily make established tradition(s), culture(s), and so on, the do-all end-all of any relationship with a God, Goddess, Ancestor, spirit, etc. (although it may) but it will inform, shape, define, and further develop one’s understanding of these Beings, and the ways in which one relates to, worships, etc. Them. The traditions are the bones on which the meat of the relationship are built.

It is the reality experienced by men and women when Truth with a capital ‘T’ cannot be articulated according to a single grammar, a single logic or a single symbol system.” (David Miller, The New Polytheism).

If you cannot articulate truth, or even try to articulate Truth, then your logic and symbol system have failed. We can debate the nature of reality according to different belief systems, and the extent that different polytheist traditions agree or disagree with one another on these things. Yet, without a single grammar, logic, or symbol system, our understanding of the Gods falls apart. Without coming to understand our Gods on Their terms, as best as we can, we are leaving our understanding of Them woefully inadequate.

Without a single grammar, logic, and symbol system, understanding the Northern Tradition, and most polytheism, falls apart. You cannot understand the Northern Tradition through the Kemetic, nor Roman polytheism. To say otherwise is saying that one can understand and speak German fluently after having done so with Greek. Are there some universal truths? If there are, (and to avoid speaking for all polytheists I will say if), they are broad, such as: the Gods are Beings Unto Themselves; respect is given for the Gods, Ancestors, and/or spirits; hospitality to people, Gods, Ancestors, and spirits; offerings are given in respect to the wishes, traditions, customs, etc. to the Gods, Ancestors, and spirits. The appearance of respect, for instance, will differ between traditions, customs of certain groups within a given tradition, the Gods worshiped by a group, the relationship between the people and their Gods, Ancestors and spirits as a whole and individually, and many, many other factors I could not hope to account for. Yet, on a baseline, there are similar beliefs, even if the shape and effects of those beliefs differ tradition to tradition, group to group, and person to person.

Polytheism is not just a term or a description; it is an identifier that an entire religious community uses to understand itself. It is an identifier people use as means to express who and what they are to others. It has an accepted meaning, Trying to dilute the meaning of this word is an attempt to dilute the meaning and understanding with which this word is used as an identifier. To try to redefine polytheism as something it is not is an insult at the least, and if enough people start using it in the way Mr. Halstead would care to, actively will produce problems in communication.

In the second post linked above, Mr. Halstead seeks to “’re-god’ the archetypes”. I take great pains to say that this is not polytheism. It is fine that he seeks to do it, but it is not polytheism. I believe that he, seeking to put the numinous back into archetypes, rather than Gods into archetypes, is a fine goal for him to do. However, it is not polytheism as I understand it, practice it, believe in, or acknowledge. It is perfectly fine that he believes, understands, practices, acknowledges, etc. in a religious context different than I. What is not fine, and what I will not stand for, is his appropriation of the word polytheism, polytheist, etc. to suit his own ends. What he describes and espouses is nothing I recognize as such.

He rightly points out that his beliefs are a choice. So too, is identifying as a polytheist, and embracing the beliefs therein. As he points out in the post, these are his beliefs. I am not attacking his beliefs, or him, please let me make that perfectly clear.

The spectrum of religious belief does exist on a spectrum, but rather than a singular spectrum, I believe it extends from many, of which extreme psychologism to extreme transcendentalism is just one. Religious beliefs are also a series of continuum on which belief and disbelief are polar opposites. These are tools which can help us understand where we lie in relating to the Gods, Ancestors, spirits, ourselves, the world around us, etc. You can be a polytheist that disbelieves their own experiences in the extreme just as you can be a be an atheist Pagan and fully believe that your experiences of the Gods, such as They are, are real. The scale is only as useful as how accurate and accepted it is.

Mr. Halstead writes “The spectrum of belief regarding the nature of divinity ranges from extreme psychologism to extreme transcendentalism. I fall more toward one end of the spectrum. Others fall more toward the other end. But we are on the same spectrum. For example, whatever they believe about the ultimate nature of divinity, I would wager most people can acknowledge that the experience of divinity is to a certain extent paradoxical, in that divinity can at least seem to be both “in” us and “outside” of us, both a part of us and also other than us.

Well, yes, when we are placed on that spectrum of course polytheists are in a very different spectrum from him. In a great many places our various religious positions do not line up. We may be able to agree that ‘the experience of divinity is to a certain extent paradoxical’. In my case, the idea that the Gods can be cosmically as well as personally present is one place where I could say the experience of a God, such as Odin, is powerful and mind-boggling.

Recognizing that I may have attributes within me, or parts of me that resonate with Odin does not mean that Odin is in me. It means that these parts, attributes, etc. resonate with Him. Odin is Odin, Odin is within Himself. When He gave breath to Ask and Embla it was a gift, one which did not cease to be His breath or a gift, but much like my parents’ DNA, that gift of life and existence is part of me. I am, in the end, external to Him. For me, this in particular is not a paradox. It makes sense, since He is not I, and I am not Him. My parents gave me life, and their DNA is bound up in me, but I am not them, nor they I, and while there are parts of me that resonate with them and parts of my persona that match up very well with them, I am not them, and vice versa. Finding the nature of the Gods in ourselves is not a paradox. I can look to a great many things, fictional and non-fictional, in a variety of media, and ‘find myself’ or aspects of myself, things that resonate with me. So too may I see the Gods in the world around me even while recognizing that my personal experience of ‘if I see three pairs of crows it may mean Odin is present’ may either be inaccurate (i.e. it is just 3 pairs of crows, congrats) or simply a personal experience for/with me alone.

Devotional polytheists have contributions to the larger Pagan communities that we may make. Whether we can make these contributions depends largely on whether or not we are given space to speak in it from our own beliefs, experiences, and traditions. Our contributions will depend on whether or not our words and identifiers are respected. I do own the word polytheist the same way that I own the words cis-gender male. The same way that I own the word pansexual. These are identifiers. I do not make these on my own, since meaning is not made in a bubble. These words are accepted by the communities that employ them, and in larger society as meaning certain things. They are, in general, respected for what they are, even if not fully agreed upon. If Neo-Pagans like Mr. Halstead are going to try to include us, respect for us starts with respect for our identifying words, our beliefs, traditions, and experiences. We do not have to agree, that is not at issue here. At issue is basic respect.

Mr. Halstead says that using the words ‘polytheist’ and ‘polytheism’ in psychologized and naturalized senses has precedent. Yet, even he admits there is better precedent for how I use it: “there’s better precedent for using the word to mean a belief in gods as literal, independent, sentient beings”. So while he writes that he sympathizes, he will continue to misuse one of the primary words by which I identify myself. There are two definitions for sympathy, and I am not sure which one rankles me more in this context: “feelings of pity for someone else’s misfortune”, or “understanding between people; common feeling” (OED). What this tells me is that either he is unmotivated by his sympathy to change his behavior, or in the face of it, he is ignoring something that wrongs others so he can use words as he sees fit.

If someone is misusing a label or term, they are misusing a label or term. His belief that “that saying Margot Adler — or Doreen Valiente — is not a polytheist is a little like saying Paul was not a Christian.” No, actually, it is stating a truth. From what writings I have seen, and with my experience of having been on a small panel with Ms. Adler, neither one of these women are polytheists such as I use, understand, or acknowledge the term. The quotes given are monist, panentheistic and/or pantheistic. None of the quotes acknowledge the Gods as Beings Unto Themselves, nor even that They are differentiated from one another. Beliefs like “all the Gods are one God” and the like are not polytheist. There is no belief in many Gods to be had here. It is not polytheist. It does not make any of the contributions these women have made to Paganism and Neo-Paganism less, it simply means they are not polytheist. These women are Pagan (or Neo-Pagan if you will) but they are not polytheist. So no, this is nothing like saying Paul was not a Christian. It is saying Paul was not a Lutheran.

Whether or not trying to erase or silence polytheist voices was Mr. Halstead’s intent, it is no longer an issue for me; it is what he and like-minded people are actively engaged in doing that concerns me. If you wish to identify as a Neo-Pagan and the larger Pagan communities accepts this I will not stand against them; that is their decision. If the larger Pagan and Neo-Pagan communities accept atheist and humanist Pagans as Pagans and/or Neo-Pagans, that is their business and their right.

‘Polytheist’ and ‘polytheism’ are not just ‘something I found’ or just words that ‘capture’ what I believe. ‘Polytheism’ and ‘polytheist’ are words that identify who and what I am. It is an identifier of the communities and people I find common cause with. It is a religious identification. These words should be used with respect to and for the people, communities, and religions they represent.

In sharing his beliefs Mr. Halstead does not silence my beliefs or erase my community. His attempted co-opting of my words, most especially my primary identifiers, does. His insistence in using these identifiers as he has done and continues to, does attempt erasure and silence. Setting up his standards as norms for my community are further attempts at erasure and silence. His use of the words we primarily identify ourselves with in the larger Pagan community on an inter and intrafaith website decreases our ability to effectively define ourselves. Twisting the words ‘polytheism’ and ‘polytheist’ to mean something they do not dilutes their usefulness as words, silences our effective use of those words, and erases our identity along with it.

Update: My thanks to James Stovall for being a sounding board, and for the example with Bob in the middle of this piece.  He helped me think on the term ‘use’, and how it can be used in a sentence without the loss of personhood, and with respect to the person.

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  1. James "TwoSnakes" Stovall
    January 22, 2014 at 10:35 pm

    I like the edits, and well spoken. I’m still not sure I totally agree with you on the “I use” thing but thank you for using my example! I suppose that’s why I tend to use terms like “call on” or simply “ask” Spirits for aid to avoid that confusion.

    Now, let me say this and have you hear it in the way I mean it: I’m amazed at how you can write on a topic. The depth in which you can explore an idea. Most of my non fiction writing reads more like bullet points, and I envy that ability. I guess I have spent to long in design and advertising!

    • January 22, 2014 at 11:14 pm

      My deep apologies, Jim. I had meant to attribute you for the example in my initial posting. I have gone back and fixed that.

      I do much the same; saying I ‘use’ people does not feel right to me either, even if I am using it in the way the Bob example showed.

      I hear your words. Thank you very much, both for them and for reading mine.

  2. James "TwoSnakes" Stovall
    January 22, 2014 at 10:51 pm

    Furthermore I have now read the posts you are referencing. There is SO MUCH to disagree with! Further proof I am not a pagan I suppose

  3. January 22, 2014 at 11:39 pm

    Sigh. This kind of thing is one reason why I’ve pretty much walked away from the term “pagan.” I can call myself a polytheist or an animist or shaman and as long as I don’t breath the word “pagan,” suddenly all these squabbles effect me much less emotionally… I’m a real dyed in the wool polytheist, and used to be a recon of a kind, though I am no longer because the gods I have really been drawn to work with do not belong to any particular human culture. But to me, even the gods of the local natural world are individuated beings. Are they interconnected? Yes, the same way the various components of an ecosystem are. But, a mouse is not a coyote, no matter how you slice it.

    The whole purpose of words is to communicate a certain meaning with relative ease. One big flaw in the pagan community (and somewhat in the modern world in general) is the belief that words can be redefined to mean whatever an individual wants them to mean. Sure, there’s no word police that will arrest you for doing so, but this is what results – confusion, insult, and the robbing of the word’s original potency. Wouldn’t the world be a much easier place if people such as John used the term “pantheist” or “monist,” both perfectly serviceable and already defined terms, rather than wanting to use “polytheist” because no one “owns it,” and having to do a lengthy write up as to what that term means when he says it? And as a polytheist of the original variety, it would certainly make my life easier to not have to clarify that I’m a polytheist that actually believes gods exist rather than just saying, you know… polytheist.

    As a polytheist who has been in the minority during my entire pagan career, I almost wonder if this couldn’t qualify as something akin to cultural appropriation. No one culture owns polytheism, but polytheism is a distinct religious “current” or style for lack of a better term, that has existed throughout history and (hopefully) will continue to do so. But now, it’s in the minority even within paganism. Why is it that every argument I see like this is always precipitated by a non-polytheist (using the original meaning of the term – see how complicated this makes things?) speaking with an authoritative tone about what paganism or polytheism “Is”? Such folks have more power, more visibility in the community. I challenge you to think of even a fraction of the number of pagan authors and people who actually teach or hold ritual at larger gatherings that are hard polytheists. I can only think of a couple myself. So isn’t saying that polytheists don’t own the term polytheist and should shut up kind of like telling Native Americans they don’t own their own religious traditions and to shut up if white folks want to redefine them how they like?

    So this kind of thing does still sting me, because I feel it is one of the greatest struggles of modern paganism and related paths – the idea that we can actually RECOGNIZE a vital supernatural world and acknowledge its’ reality outside of ourselves. To me it is the height of human arrogance to reduce everything to psychology, archetypes, saying we create the gods and spirits with our imaginations or similar things. If that is the case, why worship (excuse me, “use”) them at all? Isn’t that just so much make believe? Why rely on a psychological crutch to make your life better if that’s all you believe that it is? It’s just so much post-modern mental masturbation, if I may be so bold.

    It’s bad enough that so many of us believe that we should “use” the earth, the life on it, our fellow people, etc. What hope is there left if we are even reducing the sacred to a use-based relationship, regardless of what we believe its’ nature to be? What I believe will make the world a better place is not to embrace the aesthetic of older traditions while retaining the separatist and overly-mental modern Western mindset that has gotten us into our current mess to begin with, but to once again allow a perception of the world as vital and alive on a spiritual level, and in turn a greater world than that of man alone. A world in which we are not the principle power. This doesn’t necessarily mean polytheism exclusively, but I think it’s particularly hard to really believe in multiple gods while also reducing everything to a singular focus. I could say more, but I have a cold and have more Dayquil in me than food, so I’m not even sure this bit is getting my point across. :\

  4. January 23, 2014 at 1:02 pm

    I consider someone a polytheist if they focus on individual, externally existing beings with their own agency. If they see them as ultimately One on a distant level doesn’t matter to me. I know I’m on the same page with them spiritually if they’re *functionally* polytheist. If they make a huge deal of downplaying their polytheism then I start to back away slowly. I agree that Mr. Halstead here is being appropriative of the term “polytheism” and quoting people that are not polytheists. He sometimes has insightful & interesting things to say about (Neo) Paganism (same thing pre-fix or no) but I feel they are increasingly less relevant to me personally and misleading to some people. He is very influenced by New Age thinking. All the “we create our own truths/realities” stuff. Ugh. Psychology & spirituality can have their crossover points, but psychology is a secular science. To be taken seriously in their field a psychologist with an interest in spiritual issues is going to be tempted to explain away gods as metaphors.

    It’s also odd because at various points he’s admitted that Paganism is a giant cluster of loosely related religions, but in these posts he still seems to be trying to get everyone to fit in a “paradoxical” theological clubhouse. I think the clubhouse is falling apart. I’m not in it. I’ll build a clubhouse in another tree. Maybe visit if I feel welcome.

    • January 23, 2014 at 2:40 pm

      For me the idea of worshiping or trying to have a relationship with the ultimately One is kind of hard, if not impossible. I liken it to having a relationship with the Big Bang. If that’s your thing, that’s your thing. I very much view polytheism and polytheists in the manner you describe.

      I also look at the confluence of psychology and religion with much the same eye as you have expressed here, in no small part because while psychology may be useful in helping to understand religious phenomena from without the religion or from an outside point of view, it is only so useful within it. Like you said, psychology is a secular science. As a polytheist with a B.S. in Psychology I was often pushed, if not told I should look at my Gods as metaphors.

      • January 23, 2014 at 3:42 pm

        Right, also I have a lot of concerns with the direction psychology is headed right now mental illness being defined too broadly while at the same time genuinely mentally ill people are not getting effective help.

        When I go to my U.U. church, and they address “the Ground of Being” I try to see that as “the All/Source” etc. but I agree its too vague to connect with. That was my problem with YHWH. I think real polytheism doesn’t fit well among U.U.s

  5. January 23, 2014 at 1:29 pm

    I have largely avoided this debate, because:
    1. Too much angry angry.
    2. I’m not a polytheist and many of the nuances and terms really escape me, and I’d have to read the angry angry blog posts to dig into it.
    3. My work is largely focused elsewhere. I don’t care what people believe theologically as long as they are being good people.

    I made the mistake of reading a few of the quotes in question, though I admit, I had to do some skimming because 1. long posts, 2. angry angry, 3. lots of jargon and nuance I’m unfamiliar with.

    What I’m struck by are how many people are *total assholes* about this. I wish I could say it surprises me, but I’ve been in the Pagan community too long. I do respect your post and how you have worked to disagree and outline your point without being an asshole. I don’t understand it all, and I suppose I’m ok with that, because–I’m not a polytheist. I wouldn’t presume to tell a polytheist what they are.

    I’m a big supporter of the Pagan “big tent” of loosely allied religions. In fact, I’ve often said that Paganism is a subculture, not a religion. I think we can offer a lot to each other as allies, because good grief, we are small enough in number as it is. But, we can hardly do that if we are being assholes to each other. Asshole comments are why I often avoid the Pagan blogosphere just as much as I avoid the evening news; it does nothing for me but give me overwhelming anxiety, which is not the emotional state I need to be in to do the work that calls to me.

    • January 23, 2014 at 3:36 pm

      I can understand why you would avoid these debates given your reasons here. On the other hand, as someone who is focusing on leadership in Paganism I think that this also dovetails into things that maybe you could explore from another angle. Namely, how words, the use of words, identity politics, and similar can affect one’s relationship within one’s religion, tradition, etc. and between religions, traditions, etc.

      I am also a supporter of people coming together in allied religions. I support the places where we can come together in mutual respect. It’s why I am happy to present a workshop at ConVocation and hang out the whole weekend. It is why I come back to Michigan Paganfest each year. I want each of us to feel as safe as we may within our own identities, beliefs, religions, etc. while also respecting one another’s boundaries in the same way. While these larger debates are important, so too is connecting with one another on the ground level.

    • January 23, 2014 at 4:32 pm

      Subculture rather than religion hits the nail on the head. I think maybe part of the issue isn’t with the “big tent” approach itself, but with the number of people who think a big tent means defining paganism as a particular thing, theologically speaking. The definition inevitably leaves one or more groups out in the cold who otherwise want to be in the tent. If people want to discuss beliefs and theology, that’s great because we need more of such serious and meaty discussions. But, they should do it from the standpoint of talking about THEIR beliefs/theology and those of their own tradition, not from some overarching desire to define paganism as a whole, or large branches of it such as polytheism.

      As a polytheist my own POV is that the “angry angry” as you call it doesn’t come from polytheists caring what other people believe, but the appropriation of terms to mean what they don’t mean. Thus leaving polytheists a constant uphill battle to make their voices heard, visible and respected within the community. When I first got started in the pagan community, a polytheist HAD to qualify themselves as a polytheist if they didn’t want people making “all gods are one god” assumptions about their belief system. Now some would even take away that simple term. My plea is – use words for roughly what they are intended to mean. Sure, language evolves, but it does so organically and not because one person just decides to redefine it to suit their purpose. There are plenty of pre-existing words for people who believe in a unity of gods, so please use those. Why is this hard? John doesn’t need to use the word polytheist, but *we* do. So polytheists get angry when that’s taken away. I’m not angry so much as just annoyed and continuing to be glad I’ve distanced myself from the community.

      But my last comment is to heartily agree that people need to stop being assholes. I think John was kind of being an asshole not in the sense of anger or language, but immense arrogance and presumption. But for anyone who considers themselves a mature person and leader within the community to resort to things like “fuck you, John” to prove their argument is unnecessary. A Jedi uses the F-bomb only for defense, never for attack. ;)

  1. January 25, 2014 at 11:35 am
  2. January 26, 2014 at 5:26 pm
  3. January 28, 2014 at 10:58 pm

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